Ian Bicking: the old part of his blog

Re: Zope 3 and Modeling

I might add an interesting bit.

I'm now beeing freshly employed the third week at a place where a few people 3-4 years ago choose zope, when it was hype.

At the time, zope 2.6 and python 2.1 was choosen.

It went down as it inevitably would, the whole application is an unmaintainable, horrid, overblown, side-effect ridden, godawfull mess that has the nickname "Fpos" (fucking piece of shit). The only customer who uses it at the moment is running away from it.

I took over the python-dev part there. I'm also new to zope. The learning curve of zope 2 is exactly as you describe it. So aparts from working with really messy code, I learn zope the same time. The learning curve is as you say, a bit easy at the start, and as soon as you relize that the only way to do organized development is doing a proper product, it gets really really hard.

Of course the existing application isn't really suited now to be refactored, because half of it is build on the wrong assumption, much code is just mental masturbation from requirements that have since ceased to be important but it was easier not to touch anything instead of throwing the garbage out, etc. summa summarum, wash, rhinse, seppuku.

Time and time again, when I discuss what the application does I'm told that much of it is easier to do with zope, and that in fact zope 3 is much better now.

I'm just not sure I really want to commit to -An even more horrid learning curve -upfront design -a system that is by nature incredibly rigid because nothing is agile, in effect, forcing me after the upfront efford to get it running wholly never to commit to refactoring easy, thus preventing it.

I feel like I much rather take my chance, and reinvent some wheels but be mobile from there on. Thank you all you zope zealots.

P.S. To all you Zope zealots. By virtue of design of your system, the mess I have to work with actively costs horrid amounts of money. I'm only 3 weeks there, but already we wasted about 5 man-weeks on fixing a simple data-modelling issue, normally a few hours job. That's running costs spend for nothing then maintaining your oh so great system, around 7k$ in 3 weeks and running. I don't even want to imagine how much money that thing devoured in the 3-4 years it's running already. Alone for that this thing doesn't belong into the toolset of any professional, at least if you've a limited amount of time and budget to burn on nothing.

Comment on Zope 3 and Modeling
by Florian


I don't think it's fair to brow-beat Zope too much for its past sins. We all know what they are, and I really don't think anyone is defending Zope 2 as being a good web development platform. Experience has made that clear to many people, and Zope 3 very clearly tries to address those issues. It's still useful to consider what exactly have been the problems with Zope 2, and if Zope 3 addresses those problems in the proper way, but they deserve credit for taking their punches and then getting up and trying again.

OTOH, I know from experience when you are in the midst of one of those horrible Zope 2 apps it's hard not to get really ranty ;) It literally makes me ache when I have to work with bad DTML/Z SQL/Acquisition code. When the response to a tool becomes emotional -- and not in a good way -- the brand has a lot to make up for. I think the Zope brand is experiencing that.

# Ian Bicking