Ian Bicking: the old part of his blog

What really makes rails work comment 000

Sorry to forget Zope 3... I think it was in my original writing but I edited it out that paragraph. Zope 3 is both better than Zope 2 for Python programmers, and maybe worse in terms of bringing in non-Python programmers. I don't really see it as accessible to an off-the-street programmer who isn't committed to Python already. But there's also a good possibility that something built on Zope 3 will provide that experience -- something that looks like Plone, perhaps. Or another application that is itself a framework, but a more directed framework than the open space of Zope 3 as a whole.

It's getting off the original topic, but I do have some problems with Zope 3 (I haven't used it a whole lot, so I might be looking at it wrong). But it seems to put modeling up front, with the web UI coming along for the ride. But I think modeling is really hard, but making a web UI is pretty easy. And I think it's best to do the easy stuff first. So I'd prefer a system where development of the application UI came first (in a crude procedural manner if necessary), and the model grew out of that. I don't think this describes Rails, or Subway, and certainly not Zope 3. I guess it describes PHP, except PHP is good for that first step and bad for all following steps. Rails I suspect is appealing to a more mature developer that has gone through the PHP (or PHP-like) process. Zope 3 is appealing to a developer with a level of maturity that, I think, is very uncommon.

That said, I'd certainly like to take ideas from Zope 3 as well in my future work. Once I figure out what they are ;) I've become wary of Adaptation, though I've only tried to use it once (but it wasn't very successful). I like interfaces, especially as documentation. I should learn more to figure out what else there is. Hopefully Zope 3 people will also start distributing more stand-alone packages, which I think will increase its visibility, and let people become incrementally more comfortable with its concepts before they jump in entirely.

Comment on Re: What Really Makes Rails Work
by Ian Bicking


You've misunderstood Rails if you think it doesn't support building the UI first and extracting a model from that. That's exactly the way DHH likes to approach development. You can write a Rails app that doesn't use a database (e.g. Instiki, a great Wiki based on a pre-release Rails, that uses a RAM/disk backend).

That means you can cruft up a UI, store values in memory or whatever, iterate until you like your UI, and extract a proper model.

If that's what you want, I suggest you give Rails a try, Ian :) (Apologies if you already have.)

# Gavin Sinclair